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From paul@nospam.com Fri Jan 16 23:41:21 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Re: buyer beware 4dtv!!!!!!
From: Paul <paul@nospam.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:41:21 -0500
Poor ole jim hasn't got a clue:
Jim Anderson wrote:
>
> First - you are only allow to watch satellite's that are in the 4dtv
program.
You can watch anything that's in the digital channel maps, plus all the
regular analog C and KU channels, which would be all you would have
without 4DTV.
> Second - there are not enough connection's on the back to hook up my
equiment
> that i had with my old drake.
Buy a composite video amp/splitter, Rat Shack has them for about $30.
>
> Thrid - the ipg is worthless, it is almost always wrong.
It has been right the vast majority of the last 6 or 8 months that I've
been using it. It's right much more often that the printed monthly
guides.
>
> Fourth - If you want ku god help you. Go buy the best lnb you can and
it is
> still very hard to get them in, and i had my dish peeked, and the only
ku birds
> i could get were the ones across from a c-band bird.
4DTV performs on KU as well or better than any analog receiver out
there. Just like with any receiver and KU band you have to know what
you're doing. Maybe that's where you're lacking.
>
> There is more but i don't want to make this to long. But for $1,000.00
i was
> very disapointed, so i took my 4dtv back to the dearler boy was he
disapointed.
> So if your going to buy get it on a trial basic, know what your getting
before
> you buy. thank you jim
You're the boy who'll be disappointed when you can't watch those other
couple hundred channels that are on digicipher. And if you haven't
checked lately it would cost you about $800 to $1000 to replace that old
analog Drake with the same old analog Drake.
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From 4dtv@nlvl.com Sat Jan 17 04:26:11 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: Re: Date of 4DTV update?
From: "4DTV" <4dtv@nlvl.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:26:11 -0800
Tadek wrote in message <34BF3703.77F62463@erols.com>...
>What is the date of final `force` update of 4DTV software (80
>satellites? , including Atlantic
>birds)? Thank you.
No date has been set yet because of potential problems the forced
download
would cause to dealers and consumers that are installing a 4DTV from
inventory with the older code. However, we are working on another short
term solution to add more satellites. We plan to add about 4 to 8 of the
most requested Altantic satellites and add more generic satellites (C &
K)
to accommodate the rest.
While we're on the topic of the download, is there anyone out there that
has
NOT received the 061 download yet? In theory, the only ones that don't have
061 are the units from inventory, but I would like to double check that by
having all you 4DTV people check Options-6-5, Line H to see if you are on
061. Please only reply if you do NOT have 061.
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From telliott@erols.com Sat Jan 17 18:12:03 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Re: buyer beware 4dtv!!!!!!
From: Tom Elliott <telliott@erols.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:12:03 -0500
Paul wrote:
>
> I had no intention of flaming you Tom.
I didn't intend to single you out. I meant anyone. My apologies.
> The 4DTV unit that I'm using
> works great on KU on a 7.5ft dish. If you put it on a 12 ft dish it
> exhibits the symptons that you described. Maybe you need to attenuate
> those NBC feeds? I think that the 4DTV can be over driven by strong KU
> signals?
> And by the way, I never said it's perfect either. In fact I don't even
> bother to expect perfection or anything close any more in anything. I
> have however been happy with GI and their effort to support the
comsumer
> C Band market and applaud the way they're working to make it as good as
> they can.
Good, we agree :-), although I wish GI were a little faster, but I guess
these things take
time. Thanks for the tip about the NBC feeds; what kind of attenuator do you
recommend?
Will the 6db in-line model they sell at R Shack work? Still, it's
inconvenient to have to
mess with an attenuator every time I tune to W6 or B4.
> (PS: I wish they had used the analog tuners from the 650i model. The
C
> and KU reception and tuning is extremely excellent on the 605i's, and
> they have 27 and 31mhz filters, as well as TI.)
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From 4dtv@nlvl.com Sat Jan 17 04:45:58 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: Interactive Program Guide (IPG) -- Your opinion counts!!
From: "4DTV" <4dtv@nlvl.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:45:58 -0800
I am posting this on behalf of someone in our Product Development group.
Feel free to reply directly to her (e-mail below) or me and I will forward
the comments to her.
=========================================
I have been asked to help upgrade General Instrument's on-screen
television
guide (or Interactive Program Guide). If any of you have opinions about
on-screen guides, I'd like to hear them.
NOTE: I can't help with the data provider reliability or whether Wild
Feed
information appears in the Guide (although I assure you that people are
working on these things).
I can help make the next generation Guide more usable by getting a better
idea of how you use the product and then structuring the data and user
interface so that it will be more efficient.
Thanks in advance for your comments!
1. Which on-screen guides have you used?
2. How often do you use an on-screen guide (every time I turn on the TV,
when I can't find anything on, never)?
3. How often do you look for programs that start later in the day or a
few
days in the future?
4. What new features/enhancements would you like to see added to an
on-screen guide?
If you are interested in participating in Focus Groups or Usability
Testing,
please e-mail your name, phone number, home city and state to kyetter@gi.com
along with your comments.
Thanks again,
Kathleen Yetter
Usability Specialist
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From rfbrenn@ibm.net Sun Jan 18 11:10:28 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: Re: Interactive Program Guide (IPG) -- Your opinion counts!!
From: "Ray" <rfbrenn@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:10:28 -0500
I like the guide very much. My wish list would be the following:
1. Please make it faster. Sometimes it is very good sometimes it is slow.
2. Please let me put in channels like the PBS digital feeds that have no
info. When I try to put in a channel without information in the favorites a
or b and look at them later the IPG will ignore those channels.
3. Please add a favorite c. Having a choice between another favorite or all
sports or ppv, I would love to have another of my own. example I would love
to have all digital music and analog music in my favorite c.
4. Please let me set the time of day when the dish moves for a update. Noon
would be the best time for me not 2:00 am.
5. Please let me remove a channel from the favorites "movies". I
can not
get lets say starz west so why am I forced to see that anyway. I wastes
time to load in all the channels I can not get.
Thats all for now. Thank you for taking the time to hear how we feel. I
love my 4DTV and it is very satisfying knowing that you stand behind your
product.
Ray
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From 4dtv@nlvl.com Sun Jan 18 04:40:13 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: Re: Date of 4DTV update?
From: "4DTV" <4dtv@nlvl.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:40:13 -0800
Stuart@texas.edu.net wrote in message
<34c0a1ca.555028@news.texas.net>...
>Any idea how long the download actually takes and is it going on
>throughout the day or just overnight ?
The download takes about 10-20 minutes and only runs at night (about 2am
Pacific time).
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From 4dtv@nlvl.com Sun Jan 18 16:59:04 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Re: HBO setting me to Eastern...GI...Plz Help!!
From: "4DTV" <4dtv@nlvl.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:59:04 -0800
Tom Elliott wrote in message <34C21D5D.1D9347BB@erols.com>...
>It
>also seems that the audio settings problem has been fixed, because I
haven't
>noticed any of my custom settings being reset lately. Can you confirm
this?
If
>it's been fixed, thanks for the help. Was my diagnosis of the problem
correct?
>Keep up the good work.
What has been done is we corrected the audio definitions in the map so
that
you do not need custom settings for the channels you mentioned (DW, etc).
The information you provided was very helpful by giving us another way of
attacking the problem. Until receiving this information, we were not able
to duplicate any problems. We did find a problem and are modifying the
software to fix it, but that won't be updated until the next version update,
which will probably be later this year. Before you ask why not download the
fix (or any fix) sooner, it is because we want to minimize the number of
downloads, but fix as many problems as possible. We don't want to do what
Alphastar did and do a download every week or sometimes multiple downloads a
week.
The audio settings problem we found only affected analog ITC channels and
not VideoCipher or digital channels. If you or anyone finds an analog ITC
channel that has the audio defined incorrectly, please send e-mail to
ipg@gi.com to get it corrected. We try to keep up with this, but it always
helps to have more eyeballs (and ears) watching out for these problems, as
analog ITC channels move around and change settings quite frequently.
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From telliott@erols.com Sun Jan 18 10:25:14 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Re: Digital signal breakup
From: Tom Elliott <telliott@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:25:14 -0500
Howard L. Adler wrote:
> I find that several digital channels each night break up. The
channel may
> break up for hours or may do so occasionally during the programming.
Since
> it is not the same channel each night, the problem moves around, Turner
> Vision, my provider believes it may have something to do with the 4dtv
unit.
> Does anyone else get this problem? I will be sending an email to 4dtv
as
> well.
Try options/5 and re-peak the dish to maximize the quality number on
digital
channels. I find that the 4DTV tends to occasionally overshoot a satellite
and
needs to be re-peaked.
Regards,
Tom Elliott
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From rod@coolstf.com Mon Jan 19 13:54:25 1998
Newsgroups:
alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.misc,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: Re: 4DTV - a failure - to be terminated
From: rod@coolstf.com (Rod Hewitt)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:54:25 GMT
Tom Elliott <telliott@erols.com> wrote:
> It's my understanding that the 4DTV is already MPEG-2 compliant
because DC
>II is simply an encryption technique that "sits on top" of the
MPEG-2 layer,
>which is the encoding and transport scheme.
Nothing to do with encryption. In the case of non-encrypted
programming, the reasons that DC2/DVB are incompatible are:
1. The System Information stream is different on the two services. DVB
uses DVB-SI and DC2 uses DC2-SI. Needless to say, because of GI's
involvement with the ATSC commitee, ATSC-SI is virtually the same as
DC2.
2. DC2 uses Dolby AC3 for the audio service - DVB uses Musicam.
3. The DC2 QPSK waveform used for satellite transmission is different
than DVB. I don't know the details because GI doesn't provide any
technical information on their "standard".
> I don't think there's even a
>licensing issue involved, because I think MPEG-2/DVB is an open standard.
By
>comparison, the 4DTV could in theory be made to decode encrypted PowerVu
>signals, but they would have to license that from S.A.
DVB and PowerVu are virtually identical. However, PowerVu transmits
it's program guide (and other such data related things) in a different
way than DVB - primarily because the DVB standard wasn't ratified
prior to the time that Scientific Atlanta started shipping PowerVu
equipment. All DVB receivers I've seen can deal with PowerVu just fine
(but you don't get a program guide).
GI and SA have recently signed cross license agreements, so hopefully,
we'll see something that does both standards soon. Interestingly,
there is an addendum to the ATSC spec that explains how to make an
ATSC signal compatible with DVB...
> I think it would make the 4DTV much more attractive - it would
>save the cost of a Hyundai or a d-box to receive MPEG-2/DVB, and the
hassle of
>hooking up two receivers, and hence I think it would boost 4DTV sales.
Agreed - it would make a nice receiver.
> Maybe
>there's a commercial marketing issue involved - they don't want the 4DTV
to
>receive MPEG-2/DVB because it would be something of a disincentive for
>uplinkers to switch from MPEG-2/DVB to DC II, thus costing GI licensing
fees.
Interestingly, virtually all of the new digital services that are
starting up in North America are in DVB or PowerVu format. One must
only conclude that this is because the encoders/receivers are cheaper
to produce, because there's no licensing issues, at least with DVB.
>Maybe, it's just a practical matter of their having enough issues to
deal with
>on the 4DTV right now in getting the IPG time right, new satellites and
>channels added, negotiating with Classic Sports Network, Ovation, HITS,
etc.
>to consider this now. Maybe they think there isn't enough interest to
justify
>the effort to make the 4DTV MPEG2/DVB capable. I think the first
scenario is
>probably a little paranoid, so it's probably a combination of the last
two.
>I'm perfectly happy to wait until current software issues are resolved
before
>campaigning for new features, but I agree that it would be awesome and
make a
>lot of sense to make the 4DTV MPEG-2/DVB compliant.
I think that you're right - they have too much to contend with the
4DTV before they even think about making it work with DVB.
FYI, none of the DVB boxes I've seen will touch DC2. The Nokia
Mediamaster can be tricked into receiving just about ANYTHING that's
MPEG-2 compatible - however, this doesn't include DC2. In the case of
the Nokia, the QPSK tuner won't lock onto DC2 - if it did, I would be
able (in theory at least) to get a picture from my d-box, since the
video portion of DC2/DVB are compatible.
I think the reason the Nokia tuner won't look at DC2 is related to the
way DC2's QPSK modulation is done. But as I mentioned above, GI
doesn't publish the specs for DC2, so this can't be proved or
disproved without feedback from them.
Regards,
Rod
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From 4dtv@nlvl.com Tue Jan 20 01:05:49 1998
Newsgroups:
alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.misc,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: Re: 4DTV - a failure - to be terminated
From: "4DTV" <4dtv@nlvl.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:05:49 -0800
Rod Hewitt wrote in message
<34c46403.488047395@snews2.zippo.com>...
>Why would Viacom buy DC2 encoders, when they've just signed a contract
>with Scientific Atlanta for PowerVu encoders for their VH-1 feed?
>(http://www.sciatl.com/NewsRoom/NewsReleases/releases/971104-1.htm)
This is probably a rhetorical question meant to poke fun, but let me risk
answering it anyway. Viacom would buy DCII encoders because DCII (ATSC) is
the North American standard for digital video and Viacom plans on providing
these services to North American Cable operators for DigiCable set top
boxes.
>Or, good heavens above, is GI about to make the 4DTV work with the
>world standard for digital video, i.e. MPEG-2/DVB?
DVB may be the standard internationally, but not domestically. ATSC is
the
standard in North America. I'm not an engineer, but I would assume that
modifying the 4DTV receiver to be DVB compliant is probably more complicated
than a simple software change, and what is the target market? Based on SA's
own press release, the number of channels in North America using their
system is limited (see below), and most of those channels are available in
analog or will become available in DCII via HITS.
"VH-1 West ... E! Entertainment Television, The Family Channel, CBS
Eye On
People, FiT TV, C-SPAN, The Weather Channel, ..."
Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of GI's long term product development
plans, so can not comment on if there are plans in the future to make 4DTV
DVB compliant. My comments are based on my short term knowledge, which
seems to indicate there is no market to justify the R&D costs for this.
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From rod@coolstf.com Tue Jan 20 09:40:12 1998
Newsgroups:
alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.misc,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: Re: 4DTV - a failure - to be terminated
From: rod@coolstf.com (Rod Hewitt)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:40:12 GMT
"4DTV" <4dtv@nlvl.com> wrote:
>This is probably a rhetorical question meant to poke fun, but let me
risk
>answering it anyway. Viacom would buy DCII encoders because DCII (ATSC)
is
>the North American standard for digital video and Viacom plans on
providing
>these services to North American Cable operators for DigiCable set top
>boxes.
This wasn't written to be rhetorical - just an issue to address. I
apreciate your reply.
If I wanted to be rhetorical, I'd mention that with the exception of
four countries (US, Canada, Mexico and South Korea) the world is
finally using a single standard for video. ATSC is SO similar to DC2,
it's uncanny and a very nice piece of political manoevering on GI's
part to get it's standard adopted as the official government mandated
standard. But then, generally, I'm rhetorical.
DC2 and ATSC are very similar, but NOT the same. If they were, GI
wouldn't publish their own addendum to the ATSC spec that explains the
differences between ATSC and DC2 System Information
(http://www.nlvl.com/press/prod/siex%5Fw.html).
BTW, I don't suppose you could find out where the PDF document
referenced in this article is and put it back onto the web - I get an
http 404 error when trying to view it.
>DVB may be the standard internationally, but not domestically. ATSC
is the
>standard in North America.
ATSC is the standard in North America for terrestrial (as mandated by
the FCC) and for cable (as mandated by the SCTE). There is no
"standard" for satellite and although DC2 does have the upper hand
on
the North American satellites, there is a TON of MPEG-2/DVB video up
there. If you don't believe me, take point a spectrum analyzer and T5
Ku or PAS-5 C/Ku bands and try receiving the waveforms you'll see on a
DC2 box.
> I'm not an engineer, but I would assume that
>modifying the 4DTV receiver to be DVB compliant is probably more
complicated
>than a simple software change, and what is the target market?
The QPSK tuner is slightly different and yes, there are lots of
software changes. Obviously encryption is a key issue too.
> Based on SA's
>own press release, the number of channels in North America using their
>system is limited (see below), and most of those channels are available
in
>analog or will become available in DCII via HITS.
SA doesn't make all the MPEG-2/DVB encoders in the world - just some
of them. There is a lot more MPEG-2/DVB video on satellite that is not
listed in SA's press release.
Since the video and transport of DC2 are so similar to DVB, it should
be quite easy (relative term of course) to build a receiver to do both
- obviously, the audio encoding is different, but the second
generation DBS MPEG-2 chipsets can handle both AC3 and Musicam.
Regards,
Rod
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From telliott@erols.com Wed Jan 28 18:11:08 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: 50M+ combinations reconsidered
From: Tom Elliott <telliott@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:11:08 -0500
Hi everyone -
4DTV posted here that there are roughly 50M+ combinations possible to
receive a digital signal on each satellite. I posted a reply wherein I
showed why I thought that number could be narrowed down to at least 32
in practice. I don't think 4DTV was trying to mislead, or to discourage
the idea of letting users manually tune DC II channels; he was just
giving a very rough upper bound to demonstrate what he thought was an
obstacle to users finding a DC II signal. In any case, he NEVER said
that all 50M+ possible combinations would need to be stored in memory,
yet that keeps being repeated here by certain naysayers who are
frightened at the prospect of too much freedom. The fact is, only one
combination of parameters per channel needs to be stored in memory.
After further consideration, I wish to argue that even 32 combinations
is too high in practice. Since the 4DTV is an MCPC-only receiver, this
effectively eliminates the lower Symbol Rates. And, since the signals
from the domestic satellites are fairly high-power compared to the
signals on the hemispheric and global beams on the international
satellites, this eliminates the need for lower-valued FEC rates, at
least for audio or video - maybe they might be needed for future data
xmissions. In fact, it seems to me (without checking) that all the DC II
signals currently mapped into the 4DTV use SR 19,510 or 29,270 and FEC
3/4 or 7/8. That means FOUR combinations. It's most certainly a
tractable problem to search through four combinations.
I would appreciate if anyone, especially anyone experienced with a 4200
DC II receiver, could tell me if there is a flaw in my argument. Until
then, I think those that are mis-quoting 4DTV's remark about 50M+
combinations are doing us all a disservice.
As further evidence that the 4DTV could be programmed to hunt for DC II
signals, try this:
1) Go to satellite T4, channel 7.
2) Choose Options 6/7/7/8/1.
3) With 'Tune' highlighted, hit <Enter>
4) Within about 10 seconds, you should briefly see a picture flash on
the screen, and a quality number will appear next to the signal number
on the bottom of the menu. Also, the DC II indicator on the front panel
will illuminate.
5) If you hit <View>, you now get the gray "Please wait a
moment..."
screen indicative of a DC II channel.
See? Even though the 4DTV can't yet hunt for DC II signals, and I never
entered any parameters for T4/07, I still almost got a lock! So, please
back up your claims that the 4DTV doesn't have enough memory to search
for DC II signals, and try to do so without mis-quoting 4DTV.
One final thought about the 50M+ combinations 'argument': I have 64
Mbytes of memory in my computer, which means there are 2^64M distinct
bit-pattern combinations that I could store in memory - a truly
astronomical number! Certainly, 2^64M is larger than the age of the
universe in seconds, or the number of subatomic particles in the
universe! I will never come close to using more than an infinitesimal
fraction of those combinations, yet my computer is still capable of
doing useful work (hampered only by Win95 <g>). By analogy, the same
argument applies to the supposed obstacle that the 50M+ combinations on
the 4DTV imposes.
Regards,
Tom Elliott
P.S. If anyone missed the post about tricking the 4DTV into tuning the
FP signal on T4/07 - not just getting the DC II signal to light - e-mail
me for details.
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From mcmahon@cad.uccb.ns.ca.REMOVE Tue Feb 03 08:28:43 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Starchoice 411 downloading/setup for 4DTV digital
From: mcmahon@cad.uccb.ns.ca.REMOVE (Brian S. McMahon)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 13:28:43 GMT
I had the opportunity to play with a Starchioce 411 on the weekend
that was hooked to a 12' dish. All of the Anik ku Starchoice
programming was setup on it. When we went scanning other sats though,
we had limited success. On G9 C-band there was a few barker channels.
When it recognized G9 it said so in the upper right of the setup and
knocked the channel selection down to 3 channels. Hummmm.
I concluded that the reciever could pick up ITC "4DTV" C-band
and Ku
transmissions, but how do you map the channels or override the
settings to get all the channels? Is there anyway to save the
settings? The web would indicate that there is much more than I could
find up there. I'm tempted to get one for the Starchoice french
programming that I can't get anywheres else, but I would really like
to be able to scan for ITC channels as well. Can it be done? Thanks
for any pointers!
Brian
[remove ".REMOVE" from the e-mail to reply]
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From 4dtv@nlvl.com Thu Feb 05 00:30:50 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Re: Dear 4DTV; IT`S TIME FOR A DOWNLOAD!
From: "4DTV" <4dtv@nlvl.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:30:50 -0800
Tadek wrote in message <34D910F8.E9A0C6CC@erols.com>...
>It is already February. You promised us a few new satellites over the
>Atlantic.
>IT IS TIME FOR A DOWNLOAD!
Great Timing! We just loaded several new satellites tonight. We loaded
PAS
5 C-band (P5), Anik E1 Ku-band (A1), and several new generic satellites.
There are now 6 generic Ku-band satellites (KA - KF) and 5 generic C-band
satellites (CA - CE) for programming Atlantic satellites. We shuffled some
things around and made room for Galaxy 10 (C & Ku band) and a few more
specific satellites, which you will see in the future.
Also, look at T4-800 for BET on Jazz, and T4-970 for Adam & Eve, 971
for
Spice, and 972 for Spice Hot, which are currently scrambled, but should be
available via PPV or subscription soon.
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From 4dtv@nlvl.com Thu Feb 05 00:54:58 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Re: New Satelites added
From: "4DTV" <4dtv@nlvl.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:54:58 -0800
johnc@snowcrest.net wrote in message
<34d2153f.6229787@news.snowcrest.net>...
>Does anyone know what the new satelites,CA CB CC KE KF ect. that
>were added to the 4d are for? some tune to channel 56 , some of
>them were on the east end yesterday, today there are more, but moved
>to the west.
These are generic satellites, which can be used to program any other
satellite you want that is not already installed in the map. For example,
you could use CA for Intelsat 605 or KA for Intelsat K. The reason for 56
channels is to maximize flexibility for the various Ku-band channel formats.
Channels 1-26 are Horizontal and 31-56 are Vertical polarity.
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From telliott@erols.com Thu Feb 05 20:17:48 1998
To: Ray <rfbrenn@ibm.net>
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Re: New Satelites added
From: Tom Elliott <telliott@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 20:17:48 -0500
Ray wrote:
> where can I find intelsat 605?
>
> thank you
> Ray
Ray -
If you have a horizon-to-horizon mount and live in the eastern half of
the
country, and have an unobstructed view to the east, you can receive IS-605.
Go
to your easternmost satellite ( probably G6 ). Choose Options/6/4/4/
Satellite
CA. Set it on channel 14 and start moving the dish east until you see a
screen
that says "ABC News London via Intelsat 605". If you don't have a
H-H mount,
you will reach your actuator's limit long before you get anywhere near
IS-605.
Regards,
Tom Elliott
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From strider@blueridge.net Sun Jan 18 17:20:38 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Sleep Timer
From: strider@blueridge.net (Rick Silvers)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:20:38 GMT
Hello & to anyone from 4DTV who's keeping up with
this group.
A question that's been bugging me, why does the timer
just put the 4DTV unit to "sleep" instead of turning it off
like all other timers (tv's,stereo's,DSS etc) do??
Me personally,I like to listen to the music channels while
going to sleep.. My stereo turns itself off but the 4DTV
just goes to "sleep" and causes interference with my
VCR if I'm taping a program.(I work the 3rd so I tape a
lot of the prime time programming for watching later).
If it turned itself off this would not be a problem.. Putting
it to "sleep" seems to be total waste.
Just wondering..
Rick Silvers
strider@blueridge.net
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by
belief"--Gerry Spence
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From stevekit@worldnet.att.net Mon Jan 19 00:53:56 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Re: Sleep Timer
From: Steve Kittelsen <stevekit@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:53:56 -0500
Rick Silvers wrote:
> Me personally,I like to listen to the music channels while
> going to sleep.. My stereo turns itself off but the 4DTV
> just goes to "sleep" and causes interference with my
> VCR if I'm taping a program.(I work the 3rd so I tape a
> lot of the prime time programming for watching later).
> If it turned itself off this would not be a problem.. Putting
> it to "sleep" seems to be total waste.
This is just like moving the dish for updates at night. There is a menu
where you can select if the receiver should move the dish and update the
IPG. If you answer YES, and you leave the receiver ON, it will not do it!
What's the point of asking if the receiver should move the dish when it
will not do it when it's ON? If the receiver is OFF, nobody is of course
watching anything anyway, so why ask if it can move the dish to update the
IPG? It doesn't make any sense! If the receiver is turned OFF, it should
always get the IPG data, if the receiver is ON, it should check the status
of the option box to allow it to move the dish or not. Another software
fix in needed on this one.
Second, when a Timer event is over, the receiver should go back to the
previously tuned satellite and channel, not stay on the last Timer event
after it has ended. Then, there is not much need to enter an end time for
the Timer event. Another software fix is needed.
Timer bug. When programming an event for every Saturday at 10 AM (Star
Trek), the receiver will go into timer mode at 2 PM and 3 PM the same day,
same satellite and transponder. If you delete the event at 2 or 3 PM, you
will also delete the original event at 10 AM! Another software fix is
needed.
There should be enough problems to be fixed to warrant a new software
upgrade soon.
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From 4dtv@nlvl.com Mon Jan 19 06:17:37 1998
Newsgroups:
alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.misc,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: Re: A 4DTV Observation
From: "4DTV" <4dtv@nlvl.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 03:17:37 -0800
For some reason I did not see the original post on my news server, but
let
me respond to the points made here to try to aleviate some of the concern.
Of course since I work for the devil, oh I mean GI, you can take what I say
with a grain of salt, but I do try to be honest and realistic and try not to
make promises I can't keep. I won't make any comments, like..."This is
the
last receiver/descrambler you will ever need..." (inside joke for some
of
those long time satellite guys out there).
First, let me say that you have a right to your concerns. As a consumer,
you should have these concerns before making any large purchase. You have
to consider the life of a product based on many factors including the ones
you've described. I'm sure the first group of people that bought one of the
minidishes for $700 to $800 had these same concerns. And, in the case of
Alphastar, they proved to be valid.
>djww@ols.ols-inc.com wrote in message ...
>>What would happen if The Great And Mighty GI decided to drop this
>>line of product and no longer support it? From what I
>>understand, this receiver is programmed to receive channels from
>>a Master Download of information. If GI were to no longer there
>>to feed this thing information it becomes a Pretty paper Weight
>>am I right?
In order to address this, I must separate the 4DTV receiver from the IPG
because they are separate. The information downloaded for the receiver to
function is different than the information downloaded for the IPG. Since
your concern is whether the receiver becomes a paper weight, I will only
address the issues relating to the receiver functioning as an analog/digital
receiver and not the IPG issues.
The receiver requires several pieces of information to function properly.
Those are as follows: Satellite Information Tables (SIT), which defines the
available satellites, the Virtual Channel Tables (VCT), which defines the
available channels, other various tables that relate to the previous two (no
need to mention them individually), and a Unit Information Message (UIM),
which tells the unit where to find the other tables.
The tables described above are stored in ROM of the unit when it is
manufactured, just like the similar information is stored for analog
receivers, so right out of the box, the receiver has the SIT & VCT
information needed to view everything that is available at that time.
However, just like an analog receiver, this information gets old. The nice
thing about 4DTV is that this information can be updated via satellite
instead of manually changing the information. I suppose the disadvantage is
that you can't modify this information on your own like you can with many
analog receivers. You have to receive the new tables via satellite.
Which brings us to your concern. There are two scenarios you are
concerned
about, 1) GI decides to stop supporting the unit, and 2) GI isn't around
anymore to support the unit. In the first case, I would point out two
things, a) GI is still supporting ROM updates on many of the older analog
receivers like the 2400, 2750, etc., which have not been manufactured for
many years, so even if they decided to stop manufacturing the 4DTV receiver,
they would not stop supporting it with ROM or satellite updates, and b) the
information tables are transmitted by the national authorization center,
which is an independent entity responsible for supporting the exisitng
authorized analog receivers out there and 4DTV (more on this later). As for
item #2, GI is a large organization with many very large customers like TCI,
Time Warner, many other cable companies, PRIMESTAR, Star Choice, HBO, etc.
TCI, Time Warner and other cable MSO's just put a lot of faith in the fact
that GI will be around for a while by announcing a 4.5 billion dollar deal.
Anyway, whether GI will continue to support 4DTV should be a bigger concern
than whether GI will still be around to support it.
Which brings me back to my statement about the authorization center,
which
is actually the entity responsible for these SIT & VCT updates. Although
GI
runs the authorization center, it is run as a separate legal entity, and is
paid for by all of the c-band programmers and packagers. So even IF GI
decides to stop manufacturing 4DTV receivers, the authorization center is
not affected by this decision. The center still has to support all of the
receivers in the field, including 2.1 million analog (VideoCipher) receivers
and the 4DTV receivers.
>>That is my big complaint with the system. The 4200 people were
>>told that they would get access to all programming that the
>>consumer version would which is now not true as we find that the
>>two units are different.
I don't know what the 4200 people were told, but the 4200 was designed as
a
receiver for private networks (like PBS, LPTV, GPTV, Ford, Target, WalMart),
which is really a commercial application, not for consumers. I can't
imagine any GI person that would push the 4200 as a consumer product. It's
intended market was not consumers, so it is obviously different than the
consumer unit. The 4200 can receive MCPC and SCPC digital signals that are
ITC, but if the signals are scrambled, you need to be authorized by the
programmer directly. GI can not or should not make statements about whether
a programmer will authorize a commercial receiver in a consumer's home.
That is up to the programmers themselves.
>> What makes anyone here think that GI
>>would not just walk away from this thing like all the other GI
>>products we are starting to pile up and you all have spent
>>several hundreds to thousands of dollars on a paper weight.
What products has GI walked away from? The only one that I could think of
that you might say this about is the old VCII descrambler, which was a major
security problem. However, GI did not 'walk' away from it. GI spent over
$50 million dollars upgrading (to VCRS) nearly 300,000 VCII units in the
field at no cost to the consumer or programmer. That's not what I would
call walking away from a product.
>>Sorry if this rattles and ruffles those of you with these things
>>but, that is the reason I am not buying one at this point. The
>>system has to be told by some one else what it can or cannot pick
>>up and not by me. Yes, I have a little dish and it gives me some
>>stuff the BUD does not and I dislike it for the same reason I
>>dislike 4DTV. It is channel mapped by the programmers and not
>>us. We are loosing control of what information is let in to our
>>homes. We are loosing a freedom here doesn't that bother anyone?
>>And please think about it, you no longer have the right to see
>>something that may indeed be in the clear as your 4DTV has been
>>programmed to not see that channel. Or worse yet they change it
>>so you onlysee what they want you to see. To me that is scary.
After re-reading this last point, I see your issue is more basic than
whether GI will be around or if GI will support 4DTV, but it is about
freedom to do whatever you want with the receiver (program it how you want).
I'm not sure if I can address this concern, but let me say this. GI made a
receiver that would provide value to consumers by giving them access to the
best of both worlds, analog and digital. The receiver does this.
When the receiver was designed, GI did focal studies from many C-band
consumers and found that one complaint was that it was too complicated to
program c-band receivers for all of the satellite and channel changes
(required a dealer to come out for a $50+ trip charge to add a new
satellite), so we made that easy by taking it out of the consumer's hands.
Now that is something you don't have to worry about doing. Many consumers
think this is a great feature of the receiver, but I understand your desire
to keep that capability in your control. Anyway, our intent is not to
control what you watch (we are not a fascist company or government), but to
make things simpler for consumers.
I understand you and many others here are not typical consumers and you
want
to tinker with the unit or at least have more freedom in scanning for ITC
digital channels. We are investigating ways of giving you this freedom, but
it is quite challenging.
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From telliott@erols.com Mon Jan 19 14:00:51 1998
To: 4DTV <4dtv@nlvl.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.misc,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: Re: A 4DTV Observation
From: Tom Elliott <telliott@erols.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:00:51 -0500
4DTV wrote:
> When the receiver was designed, GI did focal studies from many
C-band
> consumers and found that one complaint was that it was too complicated
to
> program c-band receivers for all of the satellite and channel changes
> (required a dealer to come out for a $50+ trip charge to add a new
> satellite), so we made that easy by taking it out of the consumer's
hands.
> Now that is something you don't have to worry about doing. Many
consumers
> think this is a great feature of the receiver,
I think it's a great feature also, one of the best selling points of the
4DTV.
It's a great relief to know that I'll never again have to buy new EPROMs and
completely reprogram my receiver every time new firmware is released.
However,
it's very important that GI add future satellites in a timely manner, which
means much faster than the time it took to resolve the W3 / S3 situation.
> but I understand your desire
> to keep that capability in your control.
I think retaining the generic formats even after all the new satellites
are
added would be one excellent way of addressing this. BTW, don't forget to
add
the missing domestic satellites: K2, A1 (Anik E1 Ku), and Anik C1 Ku.
> Anyway, our intent is not to
> control what you watch (we are not a fascist company or government),
but to
> make things simpler for consumers.
>
Certainly. Software that automates things to make them simpler is great
provided
that there exists a way to manually overide the software when it doesn't
work as
intended. That's the control issue for me; I didn't enjoy defining new
satellites on my old receiver. As I said, this overide ability is provided
by
the generic satellite formats because if for whatever reason your definition
of
a future satellite is wrong or delayed, I can use a generic satellite format
until the definition is corrected.
> I understand you and many others here are not typical consumers and
you want
> to tinker with the unit or at least have more freedom in scanning for
ITC
> digital channels. We are investigating ways of giving you this freedom,
but
> it is quite challenging.
Thanks, that would be nice. Since you mentioned scanning for ITC
channels, it
would be much easier to scan for ITC analog channels if we could turn the
video
muting off (maybe an option on the options/5 screen ?).
Thanks again for your help and feedback.
Regards,
Tom Elliott
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From 4dtv@nlvl.com Mon Jan 19 23:15:49 1998
Newsgroups:
alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.misc,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: Re: A 4DTV Observation
From: "4DTV" <4dtv@nlvl.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:15:49 -0800
Paul J. Poirier wrote in message
<34c3965c.51249913@news.istar.ca>...
>I can tell you right now that anybody who tries to sell me anything
>that's "programmable" but doesn't give me the knowledge and/or
>software to actual program it is "shown the door". I don't buy
>computer hardware without DETAILED technical manuals and I' not about
>to change that position for any other programmable "anything".
>
>You want me to buy a 4DTV? Then you better have a "communications
>port" for linking to a pc on the back of the unit and you better
>provide software for manipulating ALL essential information AND
>provide enough technical information for someone else to create
>alternate software.
Interesting perspective. All satellite receivers are programmable with
the
ROM that is installed when you buy the unit. I'm curious what receiver you
have now that gives you the communications port and the detailed technical
information for programming it with alternative software. I haven't heard
of that until now.
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From rhawk@megabits.net Tue Jan 20 00:56:40 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.misc,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: Re: A 4DTV Observation
From: rhawk@megabits.net (robert hawk)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 05:56:40 GMT
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:11:36 GMT, pjp@istar.ca (Paul J. Poirier)
wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 03:17:37 -0800, "4DTV"
<4dtv@nlvl.com> wrote:
>
>snipped
>>
>>However, just like an analog receiver, this information gets old.
The nice
>>thing about 4DTV is that this information can be updated via
satellite
>>instead of manually changing the information. I suppose the
disadvantage is
>>that you can't modify this information on your own like you can with
many
>>analog receivers. You have to receive the new tables via satellite.
>>
>
>I'm a programmer that has worked on many "low-level" pieces of
>hardware.
>
>I can tell you right now that anybody who tries to sell me anything
>that's "programmable" but doesn't give me the knowledge and/or
>software to actual program it is "shown the door". I don't buy
>computer hardware without DETAILED technical manuals and I' not about
>to change that position for any other programmable "anything".
>
>You want me to buy a 4DTV? Then you better have a "communications
>port" for linking to a pc on the back of the unit and you better
>provide software for manipulating ALL essential information AND
>provide enough technical information for someone else to create
>alternate software.
>
>Proprietary bs., as far as I'm concerned your just saying to the
>salesman "here's a check, you fill it in", screw that!
Just wanted to let you know, that you express my views exactly.
I don't need a piece of junk, that wont let me look at a given
channel, unless GI says OK..
Bob
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From telliott@erols.com Thu Feb 05 06:30:16 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv,rec.video.satellite.tvro
Subject: New Satellite Tip
From: Tom Elliott <telliott@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 06:30:16 -0500
With the three additions, there are now six generic Ku satellites in the
4DTV. Unfortunately, I need seven:
IS-K
Hispasat 1
Orion F1
PAS-3R
PAS-1
Satcom K2
Anik C1
Here's the solution. There's only one analog channel on Hispasat, so use
S9 for that satellite. TVE will be on channel 23, with fine tuning set
to +18.00MHz. This frees up the generics to cover the other six
satellites. :-)
Don't worry about losing S9; I haven't seen any analog video there for
at least two years anyway.
I now have all my Ku birds back. <g>
One note: TVE is on a vertical xponder, while S9 only has horizontal
xponders. So, when you define S9, set the horizontal polarity to where
you normally set the vertical. In my case, horizontal is +/- 90 degrees,
and vertical is 0 degrees. When I defined S9, I set the skew to 0, even
though it's the horizontal setting. If this is confusing, then just tune
to ch 23, +18MHz, and manually fine tune the skew.
Regards,
Tom Elliott
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From telliott@erols.com Thu Feb 05 20:35:10 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Re: New Satellite Tip
From: Tom Elliott <telliott@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 20:35:10 -0500
Stuart@texas.edu.net wrote:
> >Don't worry about losing S9; I haven't seen any analog video
there for
> >at least two years anyway.
>
> There is analog on S9. I have seen it several times.
> Never kill off a satellite before it's time. you just never know what
> they might put up there.
>
Thanks for the info Stuart; I gave up on S9 a long time ago. The last
thing I
remember seeing there were Cincinatti Reds Spring training games at least
two
years ago. Still, I'll choose TVE on Hispasat over an occasional feed on S9
any day.
Two things to add about programming the new generic satellites:
The ID channel for K2 (K2/15) comes in on ch 23 on the generic Ku format,
with fine tuning set to +2.00MHz.
If you use a generic Ku format for Anik C1, then you will only get the
horizontal channels (1-26) in the east, and the vertical channels (31-56) in
the west, assuming you are far enough north to get Anik C1.
Also, a note about S8: The NY Net/Sunysat feeds are on S8/22, with fine
tuning set to +19.00MHz.
Regards,
Tom Elliott
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From Stuart@texas.edu.net Thu Feb 05 22:05:50 1998
Newsgroups: alt.video.satellite.4dtv
Subject: Channel count
From: Stuart@texas.edu.net
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 03:05:50 GMT
I know this has been brought up before but now after another download
I'm going to ask it again.
I just finished going through most of the satellites I have programmed
in. I hit options 6-5 on each one and found a different channel
count.
Most receivers have the same channel count from what I have heard but
there are a few that are doing the same as mine and I was wondering if
anyone has any ideas on why or what this means.
It does not seem to be any additional channels from what everyone else
is saying.
Any ideas ?
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From paul@nospam.com Sun Feb 08 11:15:03 1998
Newsgroups: rec.video.satellite.misc
Subject: Re: 4DTV vs SA
From: Paul <paul@nospam.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:15:03 -0500
You should investigate the facts. You'll probably find that it's your
wonderful Canadian government that insists on these restrictions. They
are very protective of you folks up there and seem to think that you
shouldn't be allowed to receive US programming without their permission
as to what you can watch and when. GI just builds what they're told to
build. You give GI credit for having much more power than they have.
John Henderson wrote:
>
> It's too bad that you folks at 4DTV decided to screw us Canadians by
not
> allowing us access to U.S. programming via Starchoice. I hope your game
> backfires and the C Band community does some investigating into
> Powerview/SA C Band receivers. Maybe, the competition will make you
> think twice before you screws us over again. I don't intend on buying
> your cable in the sky receiver U.S. or Canadian. You lost a sale with
> this deal GI!
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